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  #16  
Old 06-21-2006, 01:18 PM
TonyDB TonyDB is offline
 
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Very funny bait

Ya, I almost put myself to sleep.

For me when someone confuses drying with curing....it's like an itch that I just have to scratch.

Hey, you want to read something funny....check out the clam question in the Striper room. Read Ed's reply and then mine. I thinks it's the best one-liner I've come up with since I joined.
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  #17  
Old 06-21-2006, 01:26 PM
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Tony,

I only read the directions and know the end result.... they "cure" rock hard and are extremly chip resistant.... nothing else matters to me.. the $#!* works thats all I know....
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  #18  
Old 06-21-2006, 01:29 PM
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And that's all you'll ever need to know until you have a problem. Then you'll be asking Elmer. :)
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  #19  
Old 06-21-2006, 01:45 PM
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been using it a long time... no problems yet, thats what the stuff is made for, I'm quite sure the enfgneers know what they are doing.... I'm done with this.......
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  #20  
Old 06-21-2006, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baitrunner


Ha Ha.

Tony did stay at a holiday inn last night.
That stuff is very logical and almost interesting.

Good stuff tony. Have fun while your on vacation.
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  #21  
Old 06-22-2006, 07:39 AM
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Tony the only info I have is based on the body shop that uses it,they say they spray it on in two parts and it gets extremely hot when it is applied and as I said cures itself,its listed as brake caliper paint but they have used it in other applications with great sussuess and is extremely tough.
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  #22  
Old 06-22-2006, 04:23 PM
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Almost interesting Jim.....hey, glue is my life. Glue has been very good to me. :)

For most people, glue is a black box. They think the terms glue and epoxy are interchangeable. Knowing what you're using, how it works and how it doesn't, will elimiate their future frustrations. Just knowing the stuff Suds uses will remain a thermoplastic until exposed for 15 minutes at 350F can be used to advantage, depending on what you're trying to accomplish. Knowing that it can readily dissolve in a solvent like acetone and be painted on can be used to advantage......

I constantly get harrassed by our sales force for telling customers too much. The way I figure it, the more they understand the do's and don'ts, the more they're equipted to trouble-shoot their own adhesive problems (instead of calling our tech service center) and the more comfortable they feel using adhesives. So the next time an oppertunity arises to use an adhesive Vs. some type of mechnical fixturing, they'll chose an adhesive.

I'd rather error on the side of giving them too much info than not enough. I can usually sense when customers have had their fill of technical jargon...like bait and roc .

CK, sounds like interesting stuff...so it is a two part. I doubt it's an epoxy because they require the resin/hardner to be intimate, adequately mixed. My guess is that it's a surface activated acrylic. It's the only chemistry I can think of that could work in that manner because acrylics cure through free-radical homopolymerization. First you spray the surface with a thin layer of the hardener/activator/initiator, and then spray on the resin. The initiator provides the initial reaction and that reaction inturn splits off another free-radical and so on and so forth until all the reactive sites are consumed. The fact that this type of reaction is very quick, also explains its exothermic character you describe. If you have the chance the next time you're there, see who manufactures it. I was unaware that chemistry had transitioned into aerasol spray applicators, cool.

That chemistry does have its limitations.....unless you have uniform coverage of the surface with the activator you will have issues with adhesion and through-cure. Some free-radical cured acrylics also tend to be cure inhibitted by oxygen leaving a tacky surface.
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  #23  
Old 06-23-2006, 09:46 AM
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TONY I'M NOT SURE IF THERE IS A TWO PART MIX OR NOT,ALL I WAS TOLD BY THE BODY SHOP IS THE PAINT PORTION GETS SPRAYED THEN THE HARDENING AGENT AND IT GETS EXTREMLY HOT AND CURES VERY RAPIDLY.
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  #24  
Old 08-13-2006, 02:16 AM
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I finally got around to reading the rest of this thread and I'm very glad i did, learned quite a bit.

Question, I've had the finish on jigheads melt where it came into contact with the rubber trailer, I can assume the finish wasn't crosslinked on those and is still a thermoplastic?

Also, I'm not sure i want to know what a free-radical homopolymerization is
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  #25  
Old 08-14-2006, 09:13 AM
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Yes Suds, if you used that stuff that you provided a link to in one of your earlier posts in this thread, then cross-linking didn't occur or was very limitted. But, based on that link, that product will cross-link. So either you didn't expose it at all or you didn't expose it to high enough temperature or use a long enough cure time.

Long Answer/explanation: One thing to keep in mind is when most technical people write the product's technical data sheet, they have no idea what type of oven and heating rate the user will be able to achieve. So they write something to the effect of "cure 15 minutes at 350?F". However, most people read that as 15 minutes IN a 350?F oven. If you place a number of jigheads into an oven there's a good chance that in 15 minutes the jigheads won't even reach 350?F in that 15 minute time frame. If you use a toaster type oven, they are radiant heat ovens with no circulation. Heat uniformity can be a real problem that can only be overcome by leaving them in the oven for longer periods of time to insure all jigheads have reached the 350?F temperature and have been at that temperature for a minimum time of 15 minutes.

Short Answer: Leave them in the oven longer.

Why flexible Plastic baits melt other plastics??

Several months ago there was a question/thread about painting rubber worms or other flexible plastic trailers. In that thread I explained why this couldn't be done...and it's the same reason why the plastic trailer melted the uncured coating on your jighead. The way they get the flexibility in those baits is they add what's called a plasticizer. This is typically a very low cost non-reactive resin or diluent. Since it doesn't cross-link into the cured polymer, it adds flexibility. Because this non-reactive ingredient is in there a high levels it leaches out. That's the oily substance you feel when handling most of these baits. Besides being a very low cost method of achieving flexibility, it also provides the added benifit that when coupled with a scent, the two combine to insure a constant supply of this scented oily substance.

These plasticizers can be somewhat aggressive to other thermoplastics and melt/solvate them over time. I remember storing rubber worms in their early days in a plastic tray that wasn't "worm-proof", only to have the whole tray with the worms turn into one big sticky mess. I've even had worms melt streamers on my spinnerbaits after they contacted each other.

If you cross-link an epoxy, cure, these plasticizers won't touch it.

Suds, wrote the above before I saw your PM........not sure what you're using now for finish coating your wooden plugs. Probably any two-part epoxy will do a reasonable job. I'm sure any of the clear West System epoxies will work very well. I did a search and found some people use a Devon product called Two-ton Epoxy for finishing hard-coats on wooden plugs. I was able to look this material up and I pretty much know the chemistry they're using, a standard epoxy resin like epon 828 with an aliphatic amine curative called AEP (Amino Ethyl Piperazine) blended with an accelerator called nonyl phenol. This stuff even with the accelerator takes about 12 hours to cure. Any two part epoxy can be heat cured as well, to speed up cure. A good rule of thumb you can apply is that the cure time can be cut in half for every 10?C you raise the temperature. For example, a product that takes 60 minutes to cure at 25?C (77?F or RT), will take only 15 minutes to cure at 45?C (about 112?F). Just don't go too high in temperature or you could volatilise the curing agent or cause the coating to darken. Oh, and never place larger quantities of two part epoxies designed to RT cure in an oven or you'll get a nasty reaction, exotherm (not very healthy to breath).

Probably the only issue you need to be concerned about when heat curing these as coatings is dewetting of the epoxy under heated conditions. But if this happens, you let it gell at RT and then heat cure it....no issue. BTW, when a product is gelled, hard to the touch, it's not cured. It will take about 3 times gell (time) to reach full cure at that temperature at which it gelled. If you can't or don't want to use heat to accelerate the cure then I suggest checking out one of West Systems faster curing epoxy systems.

Here's an interesting web site I came across that may help answer your questions as well as supply you what you need.

http://www.epoxyproducts.com/mepoxies.html
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  #26  
Old 08-28-2006, 12:26 AM
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I use Envirotex-Lite 2 part epoxy to seal and then to topcoat. It's worked out extremely well but it's also extremely labor intensive.
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  #27  
Old 08-28-2006, 09:08 AM
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Couldn't find the MSDS for that product Suds so I don't know exactly what it is. I did find a brief description of the stuff and it sounds similar to that Devcon product I mentioned above.

A few more things that will help put these 2-part products into perspective. They are all mass sensitive. What that means is the larger the mass the faster they cure. It is because they are "exothermic"....they generate heat upon cure. The larger the mass, the more heat they generate. However, the way that mass is configured really effects the cure speed and peak exotherm.

Say you have 2 gallons of mixed two part. You then pour 1 gallon onto a table top forming a thin layer, coating, of the material. The other half (1 gallon) you pour into a gallon water jug. The one in the jug will cure much, much faster than the one you've poured in a thin coating. The same amount of total heat is generated by each, however, the heat dissapates readily from a thin coating. Whereas, your gallon jug concentrates the heat and litteraly feeds off itself to generate higher heat driving the reaction faster and faster. In the jug, the material will cure/gel first in the center of mass because it will be the hottest, most insulated, and cure will then proceed outward with the outside curing/gelling last. BTW, do not try this, as with most 2 parts that are reasonably fast curing, they will generate an "uncontroled" exotherm in that big of mass and configuation. You'll have to take my word on that. If you did try it, special forces will be called in to throw your a$$ in Guantonomo Bay.

So, that's why coatings, using two-parts, cure so slowly and why if you want to promote the longest working-life on your mixture, pour it out into a thin layer after mixing.

Like I said, you can speed the cure up by applying heat, for every 10?C you apply , you cut curing time in half. One thing if you do this is that because heat lowers the viscosity, you may get a drip on the bottom, or at least a heavier coating. You can actually use a heating lamp positioned above your coated plug and just keep it rotating (lathe or drill) slowly until it's cured.

If you want to try something different to minimize your efforts, you can use a moisture cure urethane. Minwax makes a spray version of a spar urethane in high/clear gloss. Although it won't last as long as a good 2 part epoxy, it should be OK and if you need to re-coat it, a quick light sanding and your're ready to apply another coat.

The ultimate in cure speed would be to use a UV curable acrylic. In shadowed areas it has a very long work-life and cures in seconds when exposed to a specific light source. But you'd need some specialized equipment (light-source). With the right product, visible light curing acrylate, you could actually use a blacklight to cure the stuff. Problem for most people is that you can't buy that type of product over the counter and it's pricey. If you really want to try that route, I can probably set you up. But that's the stuff that cures through free-radical homopolymerization and it sounds like you're homophobic.

I did a quick search to see what a low cost UV light source would cost. Seems you can get them for about $50. As I was reading further on one such low cost light source, it mentioned several other uses. If you ever watched CSI, you probably know that certain bodily fluids flouresce under UV light. So not only can you cure your coatings with it but you can check the bed clothes at your next hotel to make sure you've got clean sheets.

BTW, I did try calling you a couple of times. Must of been out fishing.
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